A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume Std. Am bidding.
On Jul 29, 9:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
This is all a matter of partnership agreement. It is not so uncommon to play Strong Jump-Shifts, even among tournament players. It is also possible to play SJS at the level of two, because otherwise a wide- ranging one over one may leave difficulties on the next round, just as in your example.
No one would play the 3D bid as a natural, forcing jump-shift absent agreement. While I am not a proponent of preempting after partner has opened a one-bid without a fit for partner, I think the standard meaning of this bid is preemptive. We play it as a splinter.
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> Bertil
you can play jump shift as weak or strong whatever you and your partner prefer but 1C-3D is a double jump and I think its best used for splinterbid
KQx Axx x Qxxxxx
with a hand like this you would be happy to show game value and shortness in diamonds so that partner can decide if 3NT is a good option or maybe better 5C (or even make a slamtry)
On Jul 29, 9:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
1C-3D would be a double jump shift, and probably either a preempt (I think it would be traditionally) or some kind of splinter. The latter is something you should have agreed upon. I don't think 1C-3D as a splinter would come up too too often since minor opening bids are so wide-ranging in strength and distribution that you would seldom have the kind of certainty about strain that you can have after a five-plus- card major suit opening.
Single jump shifts (i.e. 1C-2D) were traditionally strong and forcing to game, and I'm sure many players still play that way.
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
If you have 17+ HCP and partner has an opening bid you should be thinking of a possible slam, probably either in your solid suit or NT if you can find it and right-side it. If you find a problem that makes slam look bad you're probably safe at the five level.
I think that if you've agreed to play weak jump shifts in uncontested auctions, your initial 1D response denied that you have a weak jump shift hand and a jump shift after the first round can still show a big hand and be forcing. That means, no matter what you agree about the first jump shift, you can carry on using the old precept that all strange bids are natural and forcing. That means you should bid another suit with concentrated strength and a solid stopper (you should have some kind of a strong fragment) either as a reverse or a jump shift at the three level to keep the bidding going and see what else partner has. He can show a stopper in the fourth suit by bidding 3NT, or lack of one by retreating to an already bid suit. Then you have to figure out where to go next.
On Jul 29, 2:52 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> Bertil
Many players favour strong jump shifts.
If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
On Jul 29, 10:46 am, jonathan23 <campb...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Jul 29, 9:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> 1C-3D would be a double jump shift, and probably either a preempt (I > think it would be traditionally) or some kind of splinter. The latter > is something you should have agreed upon. I don't think 1C-3D as a > splinter would come up too too often since minor opening bids are so > wide-ranging in strength and distribution that you would seldom have > the kind of certainty about strain that you can have after a five-plus- > card major suit opening.
If you don't have a four-card (or longer) Major suit and you have good support for opener's Minor, you can be pretty sure that the choice is between the Minor suit and NT. Splinters facilitate this choice and, except for 4C over 1D,* are made at a low enough level for partner to bid 3NT, after which you can bid on if your hand is very strong but at least you know partner hs stuff in the suit in which you are short.
This hand came up just the other day: KQXX - XXX - AJXX - KQX opposite JXX - X - KQXXX - AJXX, playing a Weak NT and splinters and we reached 5D after a splinter auction.
* I _had_ a solution to the Club Splinter after partner opens 1D all worked out one evening. But I have forgotten it. LoL. I just remembered it: Responder bids 3H to show a splinter in Hearts _or_ Clubs. Opener bids 3S to say that he would have rebid 3NT over a Club splinter and 3NT if he would have bid 3NT over a Heart Splinter or over either. I remember thinking it is probably unplayable but it looks like it _might_ be workable.
> Single jump shifts (i.e. 1C-2D) were traditionally strong and forcing > to game, and I'm sure many players still play that way.
> > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > Std. Am bidding.
> If you have 17+ HCP and partner has an opening bid you should be > thinking of a possible slam, probably either in your solid suit or NT > if you can find it and right-side it. If you find a problem that > makes slam look bad you're probably safe at the five level.
> I think that if you've agreed to play weak jump shifts in uncontested > auctions, your initial 1D response denied that you have a weak jump > shift hand and a jump shift after the first round can still show a big > hand and be forcing. That means, no matter what you agree about the > first jump shift, you can carry on using the old precept that all > strange bids are natural and forcing. That means you should bid > another suit with concentrated strength and a solid stopper (you > should have some kind of a strong fragment) either as a reverse or a > jump shift at the three level to keep the bidding going and see what > else partner has. He can show a stopper in the fourth suit by bidding > 3NT, or lack of one by retreating to an already bid suit. Then you > have to figure out where to go next.
> > On Jul 29, 9:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > 1C-3D would be a double jump shift, and probably either a preempt (I > > think it would be traditionally) or some kind of splinter. The latter > > is something you should have agreed upon. I don't think 1C-3D as a > > splinter would come up too too often since minor opening bids are so > > wide-ranging in strength and distribution that you would seldom have > > the kind of certainty about strain that you can have after a five-plus- > > card major suit opening.
> If you don't have a four-card (or longer) Major suit and you have good > support for opener's Minor, you can be pretty sure that the choice is > between the Minor suit and NT. Splinters facilitate this choice and, > except for 4C over 1D,* are made at a low enough level for partner to > bid 3NT, after which you can bid on if your hand is very strong but at > least you know partner hs stuff in the suit in which you are short.
Good example. I don't think that splinters over a minor opening are useless, just that they have a fairly narrow band of application, especially a minor splinter over a minor opener. Either you have at least six cards in partner's suit and a singleton in the other minor, or seven and a void. A forcing raise that doesn't get the bidding too high would be nice to have, but not everyone plays one.
> This hand came up just the other day: KQXX - XXX - AJXX - KQX opposite > JXX - X - KQXXX - AJXX, playing a Weak NT and splinters and we reached > 5D after a splinter auction.
The whole auction would be interesting to see, if you can find the time.
> On Jul 29, 2:52 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > Std. Am bidding.
> > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > Bertil
> Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> Dave Flower
Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can remember.
> > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > 1C-3D would be a double jump shift, and probably either a preempt (I > > > think it would be traditionally) or some kind of splinter. The latter > > > is something you should have agreed upon. I don't think 1C-3D as a > > > splinter would come up too too often since minor opening bids are so > > > wide-ranging in strength and distribution that you would seldom have > > > the kind of certainty about strain that you can have after a five-plus- > > > card major suit opening.
> > If you don't have a four-card (or longer) Major suit and you have good > > support for opener's Minor, you can be pretty sure that the choice is > > between the Minor suit and NT. Splinters facilitate this choice and, > > except for 4C over 1D,* are made at a low enough level for partner to > > bid 3NT, after which you can bid on if your hand is very strong but at > > least you know partner hs stuff in the suit in which you are short.
> Good example. I don't think that splinters over a minor opening are > useless, just that they have a fairly narrow band of application, > especially a minor splinter over a minor opener. Either you have at > least six cards in partner's suit and a singleton in the other minor, > or seven and a void. A forcing raise that doesn't get the bidding too > high would be nice to have, but not everyone plays one.
> > This hand came up just the other day: KQXX - XXX - AJXX - KQX opposite > > JXX - X - KQXXX - AJXX, playing a Weak NT and splinters and we reached > > 5D after a splinter auction.
> The whole auction would be interesting to see, if you can find the > time.
1D - 3H - 4H (Roman KCB) 5D (Two KC with the Queen) 6D. I was surprised not to be in slam because I had hoped for another key card. But we were in a very good spot, even at pairs. One pair in 3NT made exactly three to tie us. Everyone else went down. I guess a minor-suit opening lead was made at that one table because an overtrick results if the opening lead is a Spade away from the Ace.
My Strong NT methods, which I don't play very often, don't handle this hand very well but they would if responder had a sixth Diamond or made a very odd choice to treat them as six.
> On Jul 29, 11:05 am, Dave Flower <DavJFlo...@BTINTERNET.COM> wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2:52 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > Bertil
> > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > Dave Flower
> Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > remember.
But I think it is losing ground to various flavors of fit-showing jumps. Some of them are weak and some stronger but they all show support for opener's suit. I would rather my 2H bid over an opponent's Double of partner's 1D showed XX - KTXXX - QJXX - XX than XX KTXXXX - QXX - XX because I don't find that the opponents can often make much when partner has opened a one-bid and I have no fit for her or him. And that's true even though we open fairly light.
|My Strong NT methods, which I don't play very often, don't handle this |hand very well but they would if responder had a sixth Diamond or made |a very odd choice to treat them as six.
I'm sure you stopped at 5D....
SNT:
1N-3H* 3S**-4C*** 5D****
* = splinter, 5-4 in minors, 9+ working HCP ** = not SI opposite relative min, at least 3-3 in minors, flag your 5-carder *** = not SI, 5 Ds (3N = 5 Cs, not SI, 4D = 5 Cs, SI; 4H = 5 Ds, SI) **** = forcing to game ;-) (This hand is kind of a super tweener--min HCP, but no wasted H values, good stuff, hard to see a 9+ HCP hand opposite that will not play well at game: Jxx x Kxxxx AJxx?)
On Jul 29, 1:46 pm, "S. Needham" <jsn_color...@comcast.net> wrote:
> |My Strong NT methods, which I don't play very often, don't handle this > |hand very well but they would if responder had a sixth Diamond or made > |a very odd choice to treat them as six.
> I'm sure you stopped at 5D....
Of course we didn't bid a slam. We were missing two key cards. In fact, I _expected_ us to reach slam when I bid RKC (4H) because he would usually have a stronger hand. He has a very minimum hand for his bid.
> SNT:
> 1N-3H* > 3S**-4C*** > 5D****
> * = splinter, 5-4 in minors, 9+ working HCP > ** = not SI opposite relative min, at least 3-3 in minors, flag your > 5-carder > *** = not SI, 5 Ds (3N = 5 Cs, not SI, 4D = 5 Cs, SI; 4H = 5 Ds, SI) > **** = forcing to game ;-) (This hand is kind of a super tweener--min HCP, > but no wasted H values, good stuff, hard to see a 9+ HCP hand opposite that > will not play well at game: Jxx x Kxxxx AJxx?)
Those Strong NT methods work on this hand but the ones I played last don't. We used to play 2S as MSS and a 3M follow-up was shortness. That method worked on this hand also.
On Jul 29, 6:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
I *ROUTINELY* play strong jumps shifts especially 1m-2M. It is comforting to know that the 1/1 responses are limited. You can play them as a fit showing and invitational (either showing a short suit or a real suit in the suit bid), non fit and forcing to game, or as nonfit and slam curious. I haven't tried playing them fit showing as well as game forcing or slam curious, but there is no real reason that you couldn't (except that it would come up less often).
As to the minor oriented hand, you may want to make the StdUS compatible agreement that, since you usually bypass 1D in favor of a 4- card major, that 1D usually shows either 10 HCP or 6 or more diamonds (since 1NT is available and reasonable otherwise).
> On Jul 29, 11:05 am, Dave Flower <DavJFlo...@BTINTERNET.COM> wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2:52 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > Bertil
> > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > Dave Flower
> Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also describe briefly the splinter bid.
Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > Bertil
> > > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > > Dave Flower
> > Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
> In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and > endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. > In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as > weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined > already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also > describe briefly the splinter bid.
> Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest > could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> Bertil- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I don't actually think of the minor suit splinter as an advanced technique. You will appreciate its simplicity better when you think of it as a tool for identifying whether or not a slam is possible. You tind a slam killing duplication of values very quicky:
1m 3X 3NT pass
which it the way it often goes. Without the splinter, it is way too easy to get past 3NT before you find the the duplication.
> > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > Bertil
> > > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > > Dave Flower
> > Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
> In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and > endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. > In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as > weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined > already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also > describe briefly the splinter bid.
> Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest > could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> Bertil
WJSIC = Weak jump shift in competition. I think the issue was in 2009, sorry I cannot look it up right now.
> > > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > > Bertil
> > > > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > > > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > > > Dave Flower
> > > Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > > > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > > > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > > > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > > > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > > > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > > > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
> > In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and > > endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. > > In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as > > weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined > > already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also > > describe briefly the splinter bid.
> > Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest > > could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> > Bertil
> WJSIC = Weak jump shift in competition. I think the issue was in 2009, > sorry I cannot look it up right now.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I might have been able to guess it had it not been for your typo of WSJIC instead of WJSIC.
> > > > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > > > Bertil
> > > > > Many players favour strong jump shifts.
> > > > > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > > > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > > > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > > > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > > > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > > > > Dave Flower
> > > > Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > > > > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > > > > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > > > > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > > > > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > > > > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > > > > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
> > > In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and > > > endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. > > > In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as > > > weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined > > > already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also > > > describe briefly the splinter bid.
> > > Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest > > > could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> > > Bertil
> > WJSIC = Weak jump shift in competition. I think the issue was in 2009, > > sorry I cannot look it up right now.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> I might have been able to guess it had it not been for your typo of > WSJIC instead of WJSIC.
> Bertil
Sorry again, I didn't notice that until you said something. Even now, it's hard to see!
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> Bertil
3D is a splinter for most, and in my opinion that is a far better use for the bid.
You have 2 choices: 1. play strong jump shifts (which is a lot more common than you imply, especially outside the USA). 2. play weak jump shifts and find your auction is compromised whenever you have a good single suited hand with limited or no support for partner.
If you play (2) you are hoping that when you jump shift you cause the opposition a problem often enough to compensate for when you would prefer to make a strong jump plus when your bid pre-empts partner but that is not at all certain (if it was everybody would play it).
> > > > > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > > > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > > > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > > > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > > > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > > > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > > > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > > > If you look at postings on rgb that ask whether a hand could have been > > > > > > bid better, it is not unusual to find responder with a hand that > > > > > > merited a strong jump shift, but playing WJS was forced into a > > > > > > convoluted sequence to attempt to show their hand. > > > > > > Further, playing a WJS it is often partner who gets pre-empted!
> > > > > > Dave Flower
> > > > > Interesting discussion. I seem to recall that Mike Lawrence favored > > > > > the strong jump shift for years, and only recently decided the > > > > > frequency and preemptive value of the weak jump shift merited a change > > > > > in his stance. I think he announced this in an ACBL Bulletin column > > > > > maybe 6 to 9 months ago. This is for uncontested auctions - the WSJIC > > > > > has been a favorite of his (and many others) as long as I can > > > > > remember.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > What does WSJIC stand for? Please specify the Bulletin issue.
> > > > In the 2nd edition of 'Idiot's Guide to Bridge" by A.Medley and > > > > endorsed by M.Lawrence there is a a chapter #24 for Advanced Idiots. > > > > In it is mentioned that most advanced players play jump responses as > > > > weak. They are called preemptive jump shifts. This idea was mentined > > > > already in the 1st edition, 1997. In the 2nd edition,2004, they also > > > > describe briefly the splinter bid.
> > > > Only advanced players would use 1C-3D as a splinter and thus the rest > > > > could use the bid as a game force and keep 1C-2D as a WJS.
> > > > Bertil
> > > WJSIC = Weak jump shift in competition. I think the issue was in 2009, > > > sorry I cannot look it up right now.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > I might have been able to guess it had it not been for your typo of > > WSJIC instead of WJSIC.
> > Bertil
> Sorry again, I didn't notice that until you said something. Even now, > it's hard to see!- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
It's interesting to look at the ACBL card. It shows splinters for major sut openings but J/S in other minor for minor opening bids. This J/S bid is in red but I don't know what it's supposed to show. It does not show "splinter" as an option. Very few intermediate players would use splinters after a minor opening bid, since it is not indicated on the card. If a pair has not adopted splinter bids, it can assign unconventional meaning to what advanced players would regard as a splinter as long as it alerts the bid.
On Jul 29, 8:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > Std. Am bidding.
> Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> Bertil
I think what you are asking is, if 1C-2D is weak, would 1C-3D be strong? I would venture to guess not one top player has played that way in the last 50 or more years, if ever. So, while you COULD agree to that, I wouldn't recommend it.
As others have said, the traditional meaning would be a preemptive hand, 7 or more diamonds and weak. The jump to 2D suggests only a six card suit.
Disliking preemptive responses (other than raises) altogether, I prefer 1C-3D to be a splinter, say AQx Kxx x AQxxxx . This assists partner in choosing between 3NT and 6C. Rare, but more important than showing long, weak diamonds IMO.
> On Jul 29, 8:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > Std. Am bidding.
> > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > Bertil
> I think what you are asking is, if 1C-2D is weak, would 1C-3D be > strong? I would venture to guess not one top player has played that > way in the last 50 or more years, if ever. So, while you COULD agree > to that, I wouldn't recommend it.
> As others have said, the traditional meaning would be a preemptive > hand, 7 or more diamonds and weak. The jump to 2D suggests only a six > card suit.
> Disliking preemptive responses (other than raises) altogether, I > prefer 1C-3D to be a splinter, say AQx Kxx x AQxxxx . This assists > partner in choosing between 3NT and 6C. Rare, but more important than > showing long, weak diamonds IMO.
If you look up the ACBL "Conventional Wisdom" series you will discover it does not agree with any 'wisdom' dispensed by any poster. It does not mention splinter bids after 1 minor opening bids. The hand in question was strong enough for a game bid and was 2-2-7-2 .
> On Jul 30, 4:01 pm, paul <paulh...@infi.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 8:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, 1C-2D > > > or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP and > > > partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you cannot > > > rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with 10-12 HCP. > > > What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is reached? Assume > > > Std. Am bidding.
> > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > Bertil
> > I think what you are asking is, if 1C-2D is weak, would 1C-3D be > > strong? I would venture to guess not one top player has played that > > way in the last 50 or more years, if ever. So, while you COULD agree > > to that, I wouldn't recommend it.
> > As others have said, the traditional meaning would be a preemptive > > hand, 7 or more diamonds and weak. The jump to 2D suggests only a six > > card suit.
> > Disliking preemptive responses (other than raises) altogether, I > > prefer 1C-3D to be a splinter, say AQx Kxx x AQxxxx . This assists > > partner in choosing between 3NT and 6C. Rare, but more important than > > showing long, weak diamonds IMO.
> If you look up the ACBL "Conventional Wisdom" series you will discover > it does not agree with any 'wisdom' dispensed by any poster. > It does not mention splinter bids after 1 minor opening bids. The > hand in question was strong enough for a game bid and was 2-2-7-2 .
If YOU look up the "Conventional Wisdom" series, please tell us where it says _anything_ to contradict what anybody has said here!
Most of the treatments advocated are alertable. 1C - 2D (if weak) is alertable, and that's marked on the CC. 1C - 3D is not mentioned in the "Conventional Wisdom" series as preemptive because that's _standard_. No splinters aren't mentioned - they're non-standard and alertable.When not in competition, 1C- 2D is not "can be strong" - by default it IS strong. I just don't know anybody who plays it that way.
Bertil wrote: > On Jul 30, 4:01 pm, paul <paulh...@infi.net> wrote: > > On Jul 29, 8:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, > > > 1C-2D or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP > > > and partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you > > > cannot rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with > > > 10-12 HCP. What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is > > > reached? Assume Std. Am bidding.
> > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > Bertil
> > I think what you are asking is, if 1C-2D is weak, would 1C-3D be > > strong? I would venture to guess not one top player has played that > > way in the last 50 or more years, if ever. So, while you COULD agree > > to that, I wouldn't recommend it.
> > As others have said, the traditional meaning would be a preemptive > > hand, 7 or more diamonds and weak. The jump to 2D suggests only a > > six card suit.
> > Disliking preemptive responses (other than raises) altogether, I > > prefer 1C-3D to be a splinter, say AQx Kxx x AQxxxx . This assists > > partner in choosing between 3NT and 6C. Rare, but more important > > than showing long, weak diamonds IMO.
> If you look up the ACBL "Conventional Wisdom" series you will discover > it does not agree with any 'wisdom' dispensed by any poster. > It does not mention splinter bids after 1 minor opening bids. The > hand in question was strong enough for a game bid and was 2-2-7-2 .
> Bertil
"Conventional Wisdom" is about how to fill out the convention card, not what is and isn't good system. It's also aimed at inexperienced players who haven't moved on to the idea yet. The place in the Bulletin for technical discussion of something like this would probably be in one of the intermediate or advanced columns (Billy Miller's, perhaps?), not the "Conventional Wisdom" series.
Splinters over minor openings aren't part of "Standard American" (which is a nebulous concept anyway), and they're probably not played by a lot of people who do play splinters over major openings (which is not universal either), but they are an agreement that people play and there's a reason for it which has been made clear to me by posts on this thread.
With a strong 2272 when partner opens a Standard American 1C, if your initial single jump shifts (i.e. 1C-2D) are weak (which is not "standard" but very common) you have no choice but to bid 1D, which is forcing and unlimited. Your subsequent actions are determined by what partner rebids. You could belong in a lot of places and a 1C opening bid is not enough information for you to decide. Partner's rebid will be very helpful.
> Bertil wrote: > > On Jul 30, 4:01 pm, paul <paulh...@infi.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 29, 8:52 am, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > A jump shift bid by responder used to be a srong bid and is still > > > > taught as part of rubber bridge bidding. But a > > > > weak jump response is common in duplicate bridge, such as 1m-2M, > > > > 1C-2D or 1H-2S. Does the same rule apply to 1C-3D?
> > > > Suppose you hold a solid 7-card Diamond suit with 17 or more HCP > > > > and partner opens 1C. You respond 1D and pd rebids 2C. Now you > > > > cannot rebid 3D, since it woud show only a good 6-card suit with > > > > 10-12 HCP. What rebid should you make to be sure a game bid is > > > > reached? Assume Std. Am bidding.
> > > > Would an initial 3D bid be game forcing?
> > > > Bertil
> > > I think what you are asking is, if 1C-2D is weak, would 1C-3D be > > > strong? I would venture to guess not one top player has played that > > > way in the last 50 or more years, if ever. So, while you COULD agree > > > to that, I wouldn't recommend it.
> > > As others have said, the traditional meaning would be a preemptive > > > hand, 7 or more diamonds and weak. The jump to 2D suggests only a > > > six card suit.
> > > Disliking preemptive responses (other than raises) altogether, I > > > prefer 1C-3D to be a splinter, say AQx Kxx x AQxxxx . This assists > > > partner in choosing between 3NT and 6C. Rare, but more important > > > than showing long, weak diamonds IMO.
> > If you look up the ACBL "Conventional Wisdom" series you will discover > > it does not agree with any 'wisdom' dispensed by any poster. > > It does not mention splinter bids after 1 minor opening bids. The > > hand in question was strong enough for a game bid and was 2-2-7-2 .
> > Bertil
> "Conventional Wisdom" is about how to fill out the convention card, not > what is and isn't good system. It's also aimed at inexperienced > players who haven't moved on to the idea yet. The place in the > Bulletin for technical discussion of something like this would probably > be in one of the intermediate or advanced columns (Billy Miller's, > perhaps?), not the "Conventional Wisdom" series.
> Splinters over minor openings aren't part of "Standard American" (which > is a nebulous concept anyway), and they're probably not played by a lot > of people who do play splinters over major openings (which is not > universal either), but they are an agreement that people play and > there's a reason for it which has been made clear to me by posts on > this thread.
> With a strong 2272 when partner opens a Standard American 1C, if your > initial single jump shifts (i.e. 1C-2D) are weak (which is not > "standard" but very common) you have no choice but to bid 1D, which is > forcing and unlimited. Your subsequent actions are determined by what > partner rebids. You could belong in a lot of places and a 1C opening > bid is not enough information for you to decide. Partner's rebid will > be very helpful.
> -- > - Jon Campbell > Ottawa CANADA- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Go back to my post and you'll dicover opener rebid 2C. What should responder bid next with a strong 2-2-7-2 hand?
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